Modern Green & Black Eco-Friendly Wedding
Monday, May 21, 2012 in Massachusetts 4 comments by Lauren Grove

Welcome to a brand new week everyone! This week is going to be a fun one, because I have LOTS of excellent posts planned for you all! You see, Wednesday is my husband and I’s 3 year wedding anniversary, and as you all know by now, I really like celebrating things. :) So, I’ve decided that in addition to the usual daily features, I’ll also be featuring a wedding every single day this week… which really just means that I’ll be adding Tuesday and Thursday to the mix. I hope you all are ready for LOTS of gorgeous weddings!

We’re starting this week off with a modern, eco-friendly wedding from Shang Chen Photography. With a modern color palette of green and black, a bride with some fabulous style, and lots of eco-friendly details, this wedding is FULL of inspiration for you all. And to top it all of, the bride Joanne is sharing some her wedding planning insight with us too!

What (or who) helps you most in your planning process and/or on your wedding day?

We had so much support from our family and friends.  My Mom and (now) husband, Chris, helped to made a lot of my crazy ideas come true!  I had so many ideas and sources of inspiration for our wedding day.  My friends and family really helped to keep me calm and organized.

On the day of our wedding, our caterer from Different Tastes and the event coordinators at DeCordova Museum really kept the event running smoothly and ensured that each of the special details we wanted as part of our wedding day were included and showcased for our guests.

What was the most important thing to you when deciding who to work with for your wedding?

From day one, Chris and I knew we wanted to have a personalized and uniquely “us” wedding.  This importance to detail and personalization was part of every decision we made about the wedding, including which vendors to work with.  Vendors are there to help make your dream wedding come true so it is so important that they understand you and are willing to listen and give feedback about your big day. 

Did any of your vendors do anything special for you before, on, or after your wedding day that you would like to share?

Our photographer, Shang Chen, knew so much about Chris and I before even meeting us face-to-face (we lived in different parts of the country!).  We had video chats and a plenty of email exchanges about how Chris & I met, the wedding vibe we wanted, photos we loved, our wedding day timeline and so many other details.  Shang coordinated a photo shoot with us a month before the wedding too, so on our wedding day we were very comfortable with her photography style and she really made us feel at ease.  We feel so lucky to have so many beautiful photos of our wedding day.

When it came to food, we personalized our wedding day menu – New England Fish & Chips, Pesto Chicken Pizza, beef filet, and butternut squash risotto – and our caterer, Different Tastes let us!  None of our food items were on their menu, but they were willing to work with us and make our menu come to life.  Guests loved the food and our cupcakes in place of cake.

Our florist really understood our love of fresh herbs and simple flowers.  Our DJ helped outline the perfect music atmosphere, in addition to playing only The Beatles during our “Beatles Cocktail Hour,” and introducing the bridal party and us “Fenway Park style.”

What was your favorite thing about your wedding?

Getting married!  Chris and I exchanged vows that we had written to each other and taking the oath to spend the rest of our lives together was absolutely my favorite part of the whole day.  We were able to celebrate our love with family and friends and had the most amazing night of our lives.  When we returned from our honeymoon, I loved hearing from guests about how much they loved the personal details from the wedding from our journals, guest book fingerprints, the cacti favors, to the bar menu, to the table numbers and table settings.

What is your best piece of advice for other brides?

Figure out what is important to you and your fiance on your wedding day, and remember it!  There are lots of opinions and inputs from family and friends, and while their thoughts and feelings are so important, you need to remember that is it YOUR wedding day and that you and your fiance are who matters the most on that day.  Stay true to yourselves and your wedding day will be the most amazing experience of your whole life! 

Love love love Joanna’s advice! Thank you for sharing all of your insight with us Joanna! And thank you to Shang Chen Photography for sharing all of the gorgeous photos too!

I absolutely LOVE the herb container centerpieces and the escort cacti! Such awesome eco-friendly options, and all things that guests can take home and enjoy after your wedding! And how about Joanna’s shoes?! LOVE! So what do you all think of these eco-friendly details? Love them as much as I do?

 

Vendors who made it all happen…

Photographer: Shang Chen Photography / Reception Venue: deCordova Sculpture Park and Museum / Flowers & Decor: Hillside Florist / Catering: Different Tastes / DJ: Boston Music Works / Bridal Salon: Jon's Bridal by Suzanne / Bride’s Jewelry: Springer's Jewelers
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4 comments

  • Jenn:

    May 21, 2012 8:48 am

    Absolutely love the whole wedding. But my fav little detail has to be the little placecard plants. They are so cute!

  • Christie O. {Hindsight Bride}:

    May 21, 2012 9:14 am

    You don't often hear the word black as a wedidng color, unless it's black and white. What a refreshing and modern wedding!

  • Shang:

    May 21, 2012 10:30 am

    It is such an honor and I'm so happy to see such a fabulous couple featured on ELD. Thank you so much Lauren, this blog is beautifully written!

  • Rhiannon:

    May 21, 2012 11:26 am

    I love an excited and uber cute bride. And this wedding is the perfect example of just that :) So sweet!
Detail To Love: Escort Card Garland
Friday, May 18, 2012 in DETAILS 1 comment by Lauren Grove

Happy Friday friends! Before I “shut down” for the weekend, it’s time for this week’s Detail To Love! You may have already seen this escort card garland from the inspiration shoot this week, but it’s one of my favorite things, so I thought I would MAKE SURE you all saw it! Plus, it’s SO easy to do for your own wedding!

Photo by Vitalic Photography

Photo by Larissa Nicole Photography

Alicia of A&P Designs created these fringed escort cards to match all of the other paper products. It was as simple as just attaching fringed crepe paper to the backs of them, and BAM- you have a plain escort card made into an AWESOME one! I used two ladders as my anchors, and tied felt fringe garland to them. I painted clothespins to match the shoot colors, and wrote the table numbers on them. And then the cards were attached to the garland using the clothespins, and voila… you have an escort card garland! This is an incredibly easy concept that can be done for your wedding, and it doesn’t take much setup! Plus, your guests will have lots of fun finding their names and taking their cards off the garland! ;)

What do you all think of the escort card garland? Will any of you be using this concept for your own wedding?

Happy weekend! See y’all back here on Monday! :)

 

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1 comment

  • bridal girl:

    May 20, 2012 11:22 am

    Yup definitely loving this. Love the design.
{Thursday Tips} Why You Shouldn’t Negotiate With Wedding Vendors
Thursday, May 17, 2012 in ELD 101 54 comments by Lauren Grove

Hi friends! So today (yesterday now I suppose), I came across an article that frankly, made me sick. And now I’m FIRED UP about it, because it was oh-so-wrong! This article was found on a VERY popular wedding website, under the category of “Wedding Planning”. True, it was dated from a few years ago- in fact, it’s from back in 2009, which is when I got married. But while things in the wedding world have changed since then, they definitely haven’t changed enough for what this article highlighted to be overlooked!

In a nutshell, this article shared tips for brides on how to negotiate with wedding vendors. While I was reading it, I felt sick. Uncomfortable. Even scared! It was telling me to pit other vendors against each other (which definitely goes against the apples to apples concept of comparison- and has happened to me before… it’s NOT cool!). The article also suggested asking for a discount, pretending like you’re not even interested, and even practicing your negotiating skills! WHAT. THE. HECK?! I would never have done any of those things when I was a bride!

Side note: I myself was a VERY curious bride. I wanted to know all of my options for how to do things, what the right and wrong ways were, and when I needed to do them. But I was also extremely timid. I didn’t know what things were supposed to cost. I didn’t have someone to tell me beforehand what they had spent on their own wedding rentals and services. I didn’t have enough information to be well-informed. And so, I approached this uncertain territory with one fact that I knew for sure: the wedding vendors were the ones who knew best (for the most part) because this was what they did for a living! As it turned out, I still didn’t have all the answers after my wedding, which is why I took a wedding planning class, worked in the wedding industry, and am now here sharing my insight with you all! :)

Photo by ELV member, Moss + Isaac

Well here’s what I think…

When it comes to your wedding, negotiation should be considered a BAD word.

 

So let’s put this bad word, negotiation, into “real world” perspective, shall we? (Because for some reason, we all tend to forget that wedding vendors are real people and real businesses- I was 100% guilty of this!)

Negotiating with a wedding vendor about the services that THEY offer would be like…

… your boss coming to you demanding that you give him or her a portion of your next paycheck.

… ordering a steak at a posh restaurant and then telling the server that you only ate half so you just want to pay for half.

… telling the saleswoman at a Kate Spade store that you really love that yellow handbag that costs $300, and you only have $150, but you really really want it!

Putting things in this kind of “real world” perspective helped me understand wedding vendors a bit more, and it also helped my brides- so I thought maybe it can help some of you! Because like I mentioned before- for some reason, when I was meeting with vendors and planning my wedding, I didn’t quite see wedding vendors as the same as all the other businesses out there. It was weird, but it was true- and I’ve continued to see evidence of this in the time I’ve spent working within the industry.

Photo by ELV member, Kismis Ink Photography

Now don’t get me wrong… there CAN be a time and place for discounts and deals when working with wedding pros. BUT it should be on the wedding vendor’s own accord, and definitely not solicited. And I’m in no way saying to not to ask questions- questions are AWESOME and in most cases, the only way that you’ll truly get answers! In fact, I don’t know about others, but when I was a wedding pro, I LOVED when brides asked questions! I know I say this over and over, but when dealing with wedding vendors, remember- this is their livelihood. It’s how they pay bills and feed their family, just like you do with the money you make from your job. Put yourself in their shoes before you ask for a discount or something for free. Heck, they usually even DO give you something if you’re nice to them! ;)

So there you have it… why you SHOULDN’T be negotiating with wedding vendors! I think negotiation only belongs at car dealerships, in peace treaties, and in hostage situations. ;) This post also wasn’t me saying that all of you awesome brides out there do “negotiate”, but I just had to share this insight with you all. And yes, there are indeed times when you do negotiate with vendors… and in those cases, the negotiating is usually invited or initiated by the vendor. :)

I’m sure some of you have negotiated in some way throughout your wedding planning process though. For those of you who have, what was your own experience in negotiating with wedding vendors like?
 

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54 comments

  • Courtney:

    May 17, 2012 8:20 am

    My husband wanted to negotiate a lot during our wedding planning. He would say things to me like "Timeline doesn't really matter, she can just stay an extra hour." or "We only need three more centerpieces, Ask if they will just throw it in." It wasn't until I turned the tables on him with a scenario at his job "Those kids that need extra help? why don't you just tutor them everyday for no charge. it would only add up to an extra 10 hours a week." Our vendors made our day possible and I wasn't about to ask them to do something extra for free.

  • Darlene:

    May 17, 2012 8:30 am

    I believe I read that same article. Seriously. It talked about exactly what you writing about: negotiating. It encourages bride to negotiate with vendors when they meet them and told brides how to go about doing it. as a vendor, it made me mad! I wrote an open letter to brides and addressed this very point - would you work the same hours for less pay at your job because your boss tells you that the company is on a tight budget? I don't think so - so please don't ask me to either. thank you for writing about this, lauren!

  • Abby Grace:

    May 17, 2012 8:34 am

    Lauren, I could kiss you right now. I can't tell you how enraged I was when I received an email in response to a request for my engagement session pricing that said "We only need a few images, can't you do anything lower?" It was so insulting, so incredibly disrespectful, that I had to wait a full 24 hours before I'd calmed down enough to respond.

  • Laura:

    May 17, 2012 8:39 am

    I'm a wedding photographer, and I can say without hesitation that when a prospective bride practices any of those tactics with me, I not only happily let her move on to the next vendor, but I will most likely decline to work with her even if she does end up wanting to book me. People who don't treat other people with respect are simply not the clients I am going to work with. Not to sound ungracious, but just as there are many vendors out there for couples to choose from, there is no shortage of couples getting married. Because I'm dealing with many couples and many weddings each year, I NEED to work with couples who appreciate my work and respect that I am running a business -- or else I will end up unhappy with my job and unable to pay my bills! Suffice it to say that, while that advice may land some brides a great deal, it could well end up keeping other brides from working with some of the vendors they want. Every bride has her wedding budget -- and every wedding professional has a monthly household budget to meet, too.

  • shipra:

    May 17, 2012 8:49 am

    Thank you, Lauren, for being a voice crying out in the wilderness on our behalf. Well said indeed!

  • Nina:

    May 17, 2012 8:52 am

    I really like this blog generally, but these negotiation posts have been ridiculous. As a Current bride to be,, i see nothing wrong with a) asking about any current specials the vendor is running, and B) inquiring about how the pricing is done. How am I supposed to know why a bouquet of a dozen roses costs $45 from the most reasonably priced florist in town but costs $10 at whole foods? People have budgets and you know what there is a huge markup in the wedding industry! Please let's not pretend this is not a known fact. These same flowers have costed less for a family reunion. Hair and makeup for the bride (as opposed to her bridal party) is always double, and why? Is it because the makeup artists don't plan on doing a good of a job on the bridal party? I don't think so. As this is not my line of work, I don't Know and I should have every right to ask about pricing. I'm not commenting directly on Abby's situation, but generally speaking i think it's okay to ask about some specials. for instance, my caterer was going to charge an upgrade from plastic plates for the cake to china. i asked about throwing that in for free since i was getting married off season, and i had another competitive catering offer, please don't sit here and say the business will fail now because they did not make their money off of those cake plates. As a photographer, you do something that not many people know a lot about. As you mentioned in a recent post, photography prices are so high because there is a lot of labor involved. The average person or bride may not know that. there's nothing wrong with understanding where your money is going and not just blindly opening up your pocketbook. this is not a luxury that all can afford. the only thing i agree with you about is that after understanding the breakdown of price, if the wedding vendor has not been able to make any package modifications or throw in a small upgrade, and the bride is still not willing to pay for the services, the bride should move on rather than than continue to haggle. I think the first question about pricing is totally fair though. If you don't think this happens in other lines of business, you are totally wrong. It's hard for any outsider to see why an insider charges the way they do.

  • Nina:

    May 17, 2012 8:54 am

    Yes, you all are starving artists indeed.

  • Christie O. {Hindsight Bride}:

    May 17, 2012 8:58 am

    @darlene Love your response. You are clearly looking for the right fit between her and her client. You also values your work as a professional and likely thought long and hard about what's a fair price. The article on The Knot was inflammatory and overly simplified. I have asked vendors if they could work within my budget. I also prefaced the question with "I understand if the answer is no because I respect you and your work." And if the answer was no, I'd ask for a recommendation. This goes back to Darlene's point about mutual respect being the ultimate litmus test. While it never hurts to ask, brides don't want to start the relationship off with their vendors in an adversarial way. I mean really, you want these people to feel as excited about your wedding as you do, not nickeled and dimed by a cheap-sake. I'm also a big fan of bartering because you're offering something of equal value. Great post Lauren!!!

  • Diana:

    May 17, 2012 9:00 am

    Kudos for writing this article, Lauren!

  • Natalie s:

    May 17, 2012 9:24 am

    You say it so well!! Preach sister!

  • Lauren Grove:

    May 17, 2012 9:27 am

    Thanks for your comment Nina! You certainly are right- there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with asking questions! It's one of the reasons that I have set out to help educate brides, because I myself was afraid to ask questions and so I just took what I could get- when in reality, I could have gotten so much better for the money that I spent! So I say, ask away! Questions are GOOD things... this post was more about those who instead of ask politely, just demand. :) And just a note: a lot of the prices that vendors establish include service. For example, with flowers, it's the prep of the flowers and the labor involved. And with your example of hair & makeup, I know for a fact that hair & mu artists allot more time to the bride, and often include a trial before the wedding day- which is most likely the reasoning for the additional cost when compared to bridesmaids. When it comes down to it, it's all about the service. Brides demand a high quality of service, and so vendors have worked that into their prices for things. :)

  • Carolyn Scott:

    May 17, 2012 9:27 am

    Amen! I think a lot of brides forget, too, that wedding vendors then tend to have a bad taste in their mouths for that particular prospective client. It seems like they devalue our work. Oftentimes, brides try to pull the car-dealership-type-upper-hand with us, like we don't already have 5 or so other brides that will come along for the date. We typically refuse to book them. :)

  • Melinda:

    May 17, 2012 9:29 am

    Awesometastic post! I was a wedding planner for years and was always irked when someone tried to negotiate. I'd always say, Here are my rates. If this doesn't fit into your budget, I'll put something together of what I'll do for that budget. If they were happy with the compromise, we'd go forward. If not, I'd recommend someone else. What brides don't realize - and this is true with many services and businesses outside of the wedding industry - is that if you're pitting vendors against each other or if you ask for a discount and the vendor automatically goes for it, most likely this is a timid business owner. If one will so easily discount themselves, they obviously don't have the confidence in their pricing and in their product or service. The last thing you want on your wedding day is someone who is lacking in confidence. That's why you hire a professional in the first place!

  • Tanya Hendricks:

    May 17, 2012 9:43 am

    Thank you Lauren for this great article. I am so glad to see someone tell Brides the reality of working with vendors. I for one do not discount my prioces, but I have been known to give them an add on for free if that is what they are needing and are working on a tight budget. Thanks again for your great post

  • Laura:

    May 17, 2012 9:55 am

    I'd like to add to my earlier comment that I absolutely welcome questions from brides regarding my costs or whether I can work with their budgets -- that isn't what I object to. But the original article doesn't just suggest that brides ask those types of questions; it suggests brides pretend to be completely disinterested in vendors to get vendors to lower prices out of desperation, and that they actually "practice a good cop/bad cop routine" with their fiances so they can work it on vendors when they meet. That is what I object to. I don't try to work over my potential clients or rush them into booking or coerce them into something more expensive than they can afford. I appreciate it if they don't do that to me., either! Thanks for the post, Lauren!

  • Liz:

    May 17, 2012 10:04 am

    Well I find this article and the comments added interesting. I'm a bride planning a wedding in November and have asked many questions and also if there are any discounts offered in the offseason. I have to agree with some of the point @nina made. Brides are people too and on a budget and there is a big difference between a bridezilla type person trying to haggle and myself. I think this article is actually mis-leading. What you mean to say is not that you shouldn't negotiate but that you shouldn't approach wedding vendors with an attitude and "expect" things from them. This probably applies to any type of vendor or business. And all this is determined by the kind of person you are NOT in that you negotiate. Maybe I am being naive but I had a very pleasant conversation with the woman I hired for DOC. I was honest With her and (as well as the 3 other vendors I spoke with) and let her know what my budget was for services. She didn't have a plan that fit my budget and wanted to chat with me about it. Because I have already done most of my planning we agreed on a price together and we've had an awesome working relationship thus far. I also think @Carolyn is missing the mark. I would never take the attitude with one of my customers that their business means nothing to me. because I have someone else lined up. Perhaps that's not the way you meant to come off but your word choice certainly hit a nerve with me.

  • Cassandra Seda:

    May 17, 2012 10:18 am

    I completely agree. Not just with this blog but with a lot of the comments that followed. There is definitely a difference between asking and demanding. ANd just as Lauren said, often times, vendors will throw in freebies when they're working with a client who clearly appreciates the product. I'm a wedding photographer and this is most definitely the case. When I know someone appreciates my work and understands why I charge what I charge, I almost always throw in a few extra prints, a wall portrait that didn't come with their package, a free engagement session, etc. We do want to be excited about your day along with you. But when a bride or couple starts off acting as if we've already stiffed them and demands the best price (cheap) for the most product (everything), it leaves a bad teaste in our mouths. And if those clients do end up booking with us, it's usually a forced and awkward relationship. I'll definitely work with couples on their budget though. If they say "I have allotted this much to photography and I completely understand if you can't work with it" we start there, I explain my pricing and why it is as such, and we see if there's the possibility to move forward. Sometimes, after answering questions and giving further explanation, couples will realize we have already bonded and will even refigure their budget to get what they want for photography. So it's definitely a give in take and just as with anything else, it's about the respect.

  • Luke:

    May 17, 2012 10:21 am

    I have no problem discussing pricing. I have no problem entering into negotiations for a wedding I really want to shoot. But negotiations aren't one sided. I'll discount if they're using a certain venue, or a certain planner because those things make my job easier and save me time. If a bride wants to spend less, I'll happily give her less or do less. One thing I won't do is reduce pricesor rates for no gain in another area. I just don't have fluff built into my pricing and overheads aren't going away...

  • Anita H:

    May 17, 2012 10:34 am

    Thanks for writing this Lauren! As a Wedding Vendor (and a current bride to be) I was so angry at the "negotiating" tactic going around teaching brides how to ask for less. Listen peeps, you get what you pay for!!! Just remember that when you're asking for a discounted rate. Its a slap in the face to vendors that have been successful in the industry for years to Reduce their pricing to a newbie that just is getting started. Sharing this!!!!

  • Stephanie:

    May 17, 2012 10:42 am

    Lauren......You.....Are.....Awesome.... Thank you for posting This.

  • Darlene:

    May 17, 2012 10:49 am

    I agree with Laura. The article in discussion is encouraging brides to have a negative view towards wedding vendors - as if we're the bad guys and we're out to get you and rip you off! No, no, no! We aren't the enemy, ladies! We are here to help. If you have questions, please ask us. No question is a silly question. Asking if we are running specials or if we offer a military discount is fine. Asking why our prices are they way they are is fine too. We do our best to educate as to why prices are the way they are. this is a service-based industry and you are paying for someone's time - not just a product. Yes, flowers can be purchased at a lower cost at a wholesale store. but there, you're just buying flowers. It may seem that there is a "mark-up" at the florist, but no. What you're paying for at the florist are the flowers as well as the time, talent, delivery and assurance that your flowers will look beautiful all day long. this article does nothing but create the good cop/bad cop that Laura suggested and creating a negative view of the industry as a whole. I trust that all of us wedding vendors are listening to our clients, treating them with respect, providing the best service for the best price, delivering on our promises, and doing an honest business. Brides, call your prospective vendor's references (Past clients) to verify if they're charging a fair price. Did you know you can do that? We recommend it to our brides. Read up on their testimonials and reviews, too. Is this really about money?

  • erica:

    May 17, 2012 10:57 am

    the knot article made me upset and sick to my stomach, too! thanks for this post, lauren!

  • Lou Kulynych:

    May 17, 2012 11:14 am

    I loved your article and as a Wedding Videographer, I experience people haggling and negotiating and I think alot of it depends on the culture of the couple. I come from a family of hagglers and at times if I have a great connection with the couple and see that they are in a Tough circumstance financially I will give a discount and I think they will really appreciate it and it makes me feel great,

  • SUzette:

    May 17, 2012 11:17 am

    I found this and thought it might help paint the picture (no Pun intended) Picasso is sketching at a park. A woman walks by, recognizes him, and begs for her portrait. Somehow, he agrees. A few minutes later, he hands her the sketch. She is elated, excited about how wonderfully it captures the very essence of her character, what beautiful work it is, and asks how much she owes him. “5000 francs, madam,” says Picasso. The woman is incredulous, outraged, and asks how that’s even possible given it only took him 5 minutes. Picasso looks up and, without missing a beat, says: “No, madam, it took me my whole life.”

  • Nina:

    May 17, 2012 11:50 am

    Lauren, Laura and all others who commented: First off, I apologize for my poor grammer and spelling skills, for some reason I have a hard time writing in all caps. Secondly, thanks for explaining that you do welcome questions and elaborating on where you draw the line. I guess the blog post came off judgmental to me at first against brides who inquire about pricing. Like I said, I am not in the wedding industry and I just don't have a good grasp on where the money is going or what it is paying for, and thus I ask questions. For instance, with the floral example I used -- I did ask, and was told it was because of the labor (and the florist actually described in detail what she did). This was totally satisfactory to me (I ended up booking her). So when I first read the blog past as being against brides even inquiring about pricing, I was upset. But now that I have read your follow-ups, I see where you all are coming from, and I think there is a big middle ground where the bride is not haggling/being disrespectful and just asking questions to understand the business better.

  • Marisa Nicole, Weddings & Events:

    May 17, 2012 12:10 pm

    Thank you for this post! You took the words right out of my heart!

  • Brynn - D'Avello Photography:

    May 17, 2012 12:15 pm

    This is obviously a touchy subject for both brides and vendors. I think more than anything it is an opportunity to educate potential clients. Weddings planning is nothing like what you think it will be... I for one had no idea what I was doing, what etiquette was involved, or what things cost. We don't wait for our clients to ask questions, we go over all of the frequently asked things in our consultation, and we clearly outline what they are getting for their money, and we go over the contract point by point. We are willing to work with budgets, but usually not by offering the same package at the same price. There is always give on both sides. We do give our clients special gifts and treats both before and after the wedding, but I think if someone was honest and open with us we would do our best to make something work. Even if it meant referring another photographer. There is something to be said for paying for real experience and skill.

  • Kerrie Hileman:

    May 17, 2012 12:54 pm

    It's about time someone said it! AMEN!

  • Laura Burlton:

    May 17, 2012 1:02 pm

    I think it comes down to personal style. I have personally never been comfortable with negotiating price with people and I can tend to find it offensive when people relentlessly try to negotiate with me. I don't mind them asking questions, and occasionally I will give a discount, but generally it is something I offer if I feel like I want to book the client. I also send my pricing to my prospective clients before we ever meet. I can only hope they read it and this prequalifies them before they come in and ask for half off or something.

  • jen:

    May 17, 2012 1:07 pm

    Thank you for writing this! The perceived value is all anything is worth to anyone...that said, if a client and I don't perceive the value of my work the same, I simply don't care to work with them! :) I mean that in the nicest way possible, and I totally don't mind educating on the subject of pricing. I'm not charging an exorbitant amount for anything, and I understand everyone has a different budget. Not everyone can buy the same car... I feel like so much of it is educating the buyer of your service or product on what creates its value. My husband gets interesting comments in his profession as well, as though the tool does the work, not the person weilding it...he recently handed his tools to someone who was heckling, and told them to try since it looked so easy. They ended up with a good appreciation for his trade. Can we force brides to become educated on our trades? No. Can we be open to a dialogue, yes. I understand the frustration with advice that encourages the devaluing of our lifes work. I will commiserate and co educate with you. And in the mean time, I'm going to start haggling prices at target, and my doctor's, and with my waitress over her tips, and record the data on how people react ;)

  • Mellissa {deLovely Affair}:

    May 17, 2012 1:14 pm

    HI Lauren, Thanks for this thought provoking article. Truthfully, I haven't looked at that other article since I was planning my own wedding a few years ago. While I mostly agree with the overall gist of what you are trying to say, I'm not in total agreement with the idea that negotiation shouldn't be part of planning a wedding with vendors. Here's why: Brides are on a budget and want the best for their wedding. Vendors come at a price and want the best for your wedding. But what a bride wants and heaps upon heaps of options, say a caterer offers as part of a package, may not be compatible. I don't need an extra 15 cheese and Cracker plates. I don't need a wine server, I am not having wine. I don't need an extra event person tacked on, I am bringing my own. What would be your price without the things I don't want or need? Seems to me to be reasonable negotiation. Selling unnecessary items is bad form. So yes, vendors know how to do their job best but don't always know WHAT is best when it comes to any particular bride's wants. There should be nothing cookie cutter about weddings. Brides need to feel empowered to ask questions about what their vendors are charging and why, AND know that they don't have to have/accept every single thing a vendor is selling them. Move on OR talk it out, discuss a couple's wants and needs and what vendors can realistically do. As a bride, I knew EXACTLY what I wanted for my florals. I had 4 florists give me a price on what they thought I needed despite telling them what I wanted and my budget. Ultimately, I settled with one who was willing to work with me on my vision and at a price that still worked for her. That type of discussion is the very definition of negotiation. No vendor will ever or should ever work at a loss to their business and I will never advocate that they should. However, one size does not fit all weddings. My photographer had a standard price for a certain # of hours, more than my wedding. We needed less, 5 not 8. I wanted to work with this photographer!! as it turned out, he had other options, well within his comfort range, that were not part of the original package but worked for us and him, in the end it was a perfect solution. That is Negotiation. If we are truthful, there is a perception, and sort of rightly so, that the wedding industry marks up prices. Brides are already skeptical and on tighter and tighter budgets. Wedding Vendors are still business owners and need to be successful. The best course: HONESTY. Brides should be honest about what they want and not feel pressured for all the things they don't. Vendors should be honest about their costs, labor and materials not pressure brides to buy what they don't want. I don't agree with or enjoy the idea of playing games in the wedding business; good cop/bad cop, playacting around your interest or pitting one against the other for business all bad taste and should be left for the cutthroats. If a vendor wants to give a discount or a free item, that is their choice. However, negotiation has and should always play a part in the wedding planning business. It keeps the playing field even, so no one is at the mercy of the other and it keeps people and vendors honest. If brides don't like it, move on; if it doesn't work for vendors, say no thank you. Thanks again for the thought provoking article; it offers up lots of questions about semantics, defining words for business, i.e. negotiation and ethics. I am going to share my original with my readers, mostly brides, and see what they think.

  • Laura:

    May 17, 2012 1:26 pm

    Nina, I got married before I worked in the wedding industry, too, and I certainly know what it was like to plan on a budget! Being a photographer now has given me such a different perspective. Here's a breakdown of the way small business owner's expenses go: nearly thirty percent of my gross profit goes directly into taxes; at least twenty percent goes back into running my business; ten percent goes into the gifts I give my clients. So that leaves me with around forty percent of the money my clients gave me. I definitely didn't know that when I was planning my own wedding and reeling from sticker shock. If I could eliminate all the overhead costs of keeping my business running and giving the government its share, I would happily charge couples much less! As it stands, I really don't have any wiggle room to cut brides a deal. But I also know that they don't know that. :-)

  • heidi | white loft studio:

    May 17, 2012 1:30 pm

    I agree...it's not a great way to start off a creative relationship with any of your vendors.

  • Jasmine - This Moment Events:

    May 17, 2012 2:04 pm

    Thank you Lauren for posting this. That article on The Knot is way outdated and really covers a lot of the ways that people should NOT be dealing with each other. It is all about respect- asking questions kindly and out of curiosity is greatly appreciated. You should certainly know, in great detail, what is included for a given price. But thinking that we'll give a discount because you seem uninterested? Um... no. And- there's a huge misconception that the word wedding = higher prices. That's just not true. For me, there is no markup on my planning services. What I charge is what I charge. For florals, I can honestly say I've never seen wedding style centerpieces at a family reunion. Whole Foods roses are $10 because they're just the flowers- they're not designed, they're not shaped. there's no labor involved in grabbing them out of the bucket there. Florists charge what they do because they have skill, experience, employees, costs, overhead- all that stuff that goes into running a business. The items involved in a wedding may cost more because there is simply more involved in putting together a wedding. More time, More people. and often times higher touch service. Like others have said if it seems to good to be true as far as price, it probably is. My best advice, pick a budget that works for you, and find pros that work within that budget.

  • Bride:

    May 17, 2012 2:15 pm

    I don't know if i agree with this blog post. of course there is a difference in asking and demanding, but negotiating isn't really demanding, it's negotiating, and i think it is perfectly acceptable. as a wedding vendor, of course i would love every client to be willing to pay full price and book my most expensive package. but that's not always the case. i think vendors need to be a bit more sensitive to the needs of today's brides. if you can come to terms on a price and package, then you are all set. if not, they walk away and you are left with the opportunity to book someone else-- or the possibility that you will not work on that date. the choice is the vendors. Also, looking at your examples, this is why contracts are important.

  • Wendy Wade:

    May 17, 2012 2:17 pm

    I LOVE when clients want to chat about pricing and how it's structured. It's a great conversation that I will have any day of the week. However, my pricing structure ensures that I'm able to buy groceries, put gas in my car, tend to my family and continue to do the best work that I possibly can, and it's not over-inflated simply because I "work with Brides." Bringing up questions about why things are priced the way they are is fine, just don't start to expect vendors to throwing accommodations at you.

  • kristin:

    May 17, 2012 3:19 pm

    thank you baby jesus. I was SOOOOO outraged all day yesterday. i made sure to scream from the rooftops how wrong that article was and made every attempt to make it known to the company, the vendors, and the world. what many couples don't understand is that they do NOT hold all the cards. They are NOT interviewing US, or doing US a favor by giving us work. In fact, i say this often, we have just as much control, if not more, to say NO to a couple than they have. If they are not a good fit for us, we have the power to decline working with them. i can appreciate couples working with budgets. but this is why my pricing is clear. i do not need to spend time on couples who clearly have no intention of paying X amount and intend to haggle. they need to move on to other vendors, NOT negotiate. You wouldn't tell Picasso what HIS work is worth. You wouldn't negotiate with the COUPLE to only work half of their ceremony, eat during their first dance, and only edit a portion of the images. clearly, there is much to be said about this!!! :) love u!

  • Kristin:

    May 17, 2012 3:28 pm

    i need to add -- my last comment comes off like I'm rude and yelling which i did not intend, so i apologize!!! plain and simple ; everyone is equal. vendors appreciate and understand where couples are coming from. we are sensitive to their needs and situations. couples need to have the same feelings towards us as well. There is nothing wrong with asking prices, of if there are specials. in fact that should go without saying. the main thing is like i said, consumers do not put a price tag on an artist's work or tell them what they think they're worth. and if they say, i only have x amount to work with and i need x amount taken off, instead it should be what can i get with you for x amount. there won't be a single vendor that'll turn down the question, they will tell you what you honestly can afford with them. yes we are sensitive to couples situations, and they have lots of things they need to spend on. we also have mouths to feed, mortgages to pay, etc etc. we are all equals

  • Megan [Glamour and Grace]:

    May 17, 2012 3:30 pm

    I think this post is great. Lauren isn't saying you shouldn't ask questions. The original article she is referring to was telling bride's to use more deceptive tactics to get what you want. This is utterly wrong. Honesty and trust is key for your wedding vendors, you loose that and you won't be happy at the end of the day. Also, in terms of haggling, think of it this way: What if you found out that another bride payed $300 less for her photography because the photographer cut her a deal? You would be hurt and upset. Fair and firm pricing makes the most sense for both parties.

  • Sara:

    May 17, 2012 3:34 pm

    Unless you've got the lady balls to walk into Kate Spade and negotiate with the sales lady for the handbag you want, don't negotiate with anyone else. And that includes wedding vendors. xx

  • Misty:

    May 17, 2012 4:24 pm

    Kuddos to you! Thanks so much for taking this stand for all of us wedding vendors. I wish everyone could understand your point that this is my paycheck and my sole source of income. I put just as much work into my wedding photography if its for 10 people or 200 people on a saturday or a tuesday. i hope that this encourages other wedding vendors to take a stand and hold firm.

  • Anna:

    May 17, 2012 6:10 pm

    "When it comes to your wedding, negotiation should be considered a BAD word. " I completely disagree with this statement. Negotiation is NOT a bad word. If done correctly and respectuflly, everyone has the right and freedom to be able to obtain the services that they want for the price that they can pay. On the same token, the servide provideer has the right and freedom to decline a bride/groom should their price be lower than what they can afford to take. You asked what people's negotiation experiences were Like. Here's mine: Venue: I calculated ahead of time what my fiance and I could afford. I also had a list of must haves. I emailed multiple venues if they were able to meet our hard budget with our list of must haves. I asked nicely and respectuflly and mentioned that I would understand if they couldn't. Several venues returned back with Nos. Others said they can come close but not completely. We ended up with a venue that came very close but not completey...but they won us over with excellent customer service/people skills, AND humility even though they already had raving reviews. They didn't come at us like "oh we don't need your business because we're so good and everyone wants us" attitude. Photography: We basically had the same strategy. We had our hard budget and didn't want alot of extras like albums, etc. For the type of pictures I wanted, I knew I could only afford someone who was good but still starting to make a name in the industry. So, I went with someone new. I emailed a few people who sent us their rates and I respectfully said I'm sorry but I can't meet that....Is there any way we can take away some of your package offerings like an album or reduce the number of shooting hours? Some got annoyed and some said ok we can definitely work with you. I believe this type of negotiation is NOT done in a bad way. All of our other negotiations were basically done this way. We had our budget...now who can meet that? I can already hear some vendors reading this thinking that oh, you mustve have gotten the bottom dwellers who will take what they can get. And I would say that it's completely untrue. our wedding was better than I could have expected and our vendors were wonderful. Because of the excellent service that we recieved, we tipped VERY generously. Lastly, I don't want or need to ask questions about why your rate is the way it is. I don't care to know that you have to pay for healthcare or your overhead costs. That is your business and you figure out for yourself what you should charge based on your skills, reputation, and overall service offering. I as a Bride care about what I can afford. I'm not just going to sit back and Pay for anything at face value. If you're offering something that I don't need, I'm going to ask if it can be removed for less money. yes, there are rude brides out there...and there are as many rude vendors as there are rude brides. But just because there are a few bad apples in the mix does not make the word "negotiation" a bad word.

  • Lauren Grove:

    May 17, 2012 6:29 pm

    Anna, your examples and experiences in negotiating for your wedding are great! THAT is the way to do it- polite and up front. Unfortunately, the article that I was basing this post off of was supporting methods that were anything but that. But you are an excellent example of how brides can successfully negotiate in a way that works for all parties! Thank you for your insightful comment! :)

  • Sammantha {ImprintCinema}:

    May 17, 2012 10:57 pm

    So after reading this post, the article to which it refers, and all the comments so far, i would like to share a little. I am a Wedding Cinematographer and a recent bride and I think most people here have a point. Yes the article that prompted this post is dated but from my own experience as a wedding pro- there are brides who do negotiate this way and treat their vendors like they are doing us a favor-which isn't cool. And I think that Lauren has a fabulous point that negotiating shouldn't be initiated from the couple-there is a difference between asking if a "package" can be changed and negotiating a price down. Negotiating for a lower price gives the connotation that their work does not have as much value to you as what they are asking. Asking questions like "do you charge less for off season or off days" or "are you running any specials" is not negotiating. Negotiating is telling a wedding professional- I know you ask this much for this BUT, I would like to pay you this much for it instead. On another note, we do not negotiate our prices- they are what they are for a reason. But occasionally we will work with a couple to find what we can do (sometimes that means changing a collection to fit the couples needs better, and sometimes it means recommending them to a different cinematographer) for a couple. And lastly, I so appreciated the mention in a comment that there should be no "cookie cutter" when it comes to weddings... Amen! No two are alike and we have incorporated a la carte pricing for our couples because I believe this. And, I say this because I think it keeps our couples from having to ask questions about lots of things. Our price list explains how everything is priced and we go through it with each couple to explain why everything is that way. Love Lauren's post and I think some of the comments are a miscommunication about the difference of "negotiating" and "asking questions".

  • Wesley Leytham:

    May 17, 2012 11:07 pm

    If I could add one point to all this that I think needs to be made.... Wedding vendors are not huge corporations. They are not "making bank" every weekend. These are small business owners who work extremely hard to do a very difficult job. Weddings are extremely stressful on everyone behind the scenes. I do not know one wedding vendor/owner I would consider wealthy. They do what they can to make a modest living. While I realize weddings can be expensive, please honor the people who make that day happen for you by paying them what they are worth and do not haggle them like a used car salesman. Every dollar you haggle off is one less dollar they can put back into their business. for a photographer, that could mean a new camera they need to shoot your wedding or for the florist, a couple of extra hired hands to make sure everything is perfectly put in place on your wedding day. Most vendors charge what they need to survive as a business. Anything less means they may not be there for the next bride.

  • Peggy:

    May 18, 2012 1:14 am

    I am a home baker in Texas, where our laws were recently changed to allow us to bake from home and sell for profit, with limitations. Although i do not have the same overhead as a commercial baker, i do try to keep my pricing in line with theirs. My skills are as good as theirs and in some cases better than. While I am completely self-taught, i will say that I do not put any less work or care into my finished product than the commercial or trained baker does. I go out of my way to accommodate my client, within reason. But I do not cut my prices to make a sell. While it is frustrating to be told that my price is too expensive,, my feeling is that my work and talent are worth the price. People don't often walk into a commercial bakery and tell them that their prices are too high for a product. If the work is something that a client is happy with, and they feel like they are getting the best cake for their event, one that is their dream cake, they should be comfortable with the price quoted. It may be necessary for the client to lower their expectations or compromise on a less "dreamy" cake if they really want the baker to be their cake decorator. With the outbreak of cake decorating competitions on Television, there is an expectation that a person can have the same thing and that it wont cost much. While those competitors do win a hefty prize, they paytheir own way to the show, including equipment they want to use at the show, hotel costs, etc. before they win, they've spent the money. If they have a shop, while they are on the show, someone has to run the shop and they are paying for that person to continue to be there too. it's not hard to see why cakes cost so much when you realize the amount of time that goes into each aspect. Personally, i make sugar flowers for my cakes. this takes many many hours of creating and drying time to make the flowers, each one individually. My cakes are baked fresh, never frozen. I spend many hours in my kitchen just making the cakes. There is so much time involved in creating a wonderful product.. The last place you would want to "negotiate" a price, would be with your cake decorator. they are creating the first thing you will eat as a married couple, the thing you share with your family and friends. Dont skimp on the cake to cut corners..... ask the florist for a better deal - just kidding on that.

  • Daniel Cruz:

    May 18, 2012 1:40 am

    Thank you Lauren for sharing your thoughts, and for protecting our craft.

  • Teryl:

    May 18, 2012 1:43 am

    @Lauren, Thank you for mentioning that hair & makeup artists usually do trial runs! I have been in the industry for many years and always do a trial with my bride in the weeks prior to the wedding. So if you think about it, I am doing their hair & makeup twice! That's how we make sure we achieve the look they desire for their special day. I also make myself open via email to any bridesmaid who has any questions about their styling. I welcome their thoughts, love to see their "inspiration" photos and if possible a photo of them. That way I come prepared to do my best job possible for the day of the event and not be surprised by anything. Ultimately my goal is to make everyone feel as beautiful as possible. I have been fortunate to have worked with many wonderful brides/bridesmaids and have luckily not had to deal with this topic often, but it's nice to see the thoughts written down & know I'm not the only vendor who feels this way occasionally. Thanks for posting! Happy Spring everyone!

  • The Friday Fresh Squeeze | Floridian Weddings:

    May 18, 2012 8:11 am

    [...] by this fun and insightful interview with Wedding Queen Mindy Weiss.What are your thoughts on negotiating with wedding vendors?Can't decide what we love most about this secret garden wedding shoot... the gorgeous flowers, the [...]

  • Deb Esling:

    May 18, 2012 10:18 am

    I am not in the wedding business (we do web design), and I got married about 100 years ago ... but I find that most vendors -- in all areas -- go above and beyond the call of duty. the are ALREADY undervalued, and I would think it's offensive to ask for discounts. Find someone to work with that fits your budget in the first place.

  • Jesse Caya:

    May 18, 2012 11:41 am

    You are more likely to get exactly what you ordered when you pay for it with cash, rather than with promises, favors, and concessions.

  • elijah Paul:

    May 18, 2012 2:23 pm

    The difference is motive. It is smart for a customer to inquire about any available "incentives and packages" as to take each option into consideration in order to make the best decision. A customer becomes very difficult to serve when the inquiry becomes an insatiable and ignorant demand. From a broader perspective, it is in the best interest of BOTH parties to build a lasting relationship with each other, founded on mutual respect so that expectations from both parties are met. "Frustration occurs when expectation lacks communication"

  • A cake to remember:

    May 18, 2012 7:56 pm

    I don't mind if a bride wants to ask for a discount, there's nothing wrong with asking. I don't usually give discounts, though, because my pricing is where it is for a reason, and I will explain that to the bride if she does ask. I think that taking these kinds of articles personally is pretty pointless, it's just more bad advice from the wedding industry. Brides who ask for discounts might really love your work but just can't afford it, so having someone ask for a discount doesn't necessarily mean that they don't value your work. I drive a Volvo and I love it, but I can't afford to buy a new one...so I negotiate when I buy a used one.. Doesn't mean that I don't place a high value on it, I just have to figure out how to afford one. Dont take this kind of article personally, there are better things to stress out about!

  • Anna:

    May 18, 2012 11:55 pm

    I still disagree with the title of this post and you saying that when it comes to weddings, negotiations should be considered a bad word. I think you have the definition of negotiations wrong here. What you and most of the vendor comments described here are brides being straight up cheap and not valuing your work. I don't know what that's called but thats not negotiating. I guess on the same token, that outdated article wasn't talking about either.
Orange & Gray Modern, Elegant Wedding
Wednesday, May 16, 2012 in Classic 10 comments by Lauren Grove

Happy Wedding Wednesday everyone! Well as you all know, a Wednesday around here means another fabulous wedding! This orange and gray wedding I have for you all today is modern, elegant, and full of gorgeous details! Antonia Christianson Events did an absolutely amazing job planning this gorgeous wedding, and Kristin Byrum Photography captured it all wonderfully! But you don’t have to take my word for it… the bride, Emily, is here to tell us all about her beautiful wedding!

 What (or who) helped you most in your planning process and/or on your wedding day?

As a graphic design major in college I started collecting copies of Martha Stewart Weddings for design inspiration (and of course to daydream for my future wedding) years before I met my husband. I pulled a lot of inspiration from those magazines and all of the incredible wedding blogs, but I found Real Simple Weddings helped me start the planning process. Hiring Antonia Christianson as my coordinator was the best decision I could have made, and finding out she is a sorority sister didn’t hurt either! As a super detail oriented bride I followed her checklist and timeline religiously!! I genuinely trusted her team and knew that every detail of our wedding would be flawless with her in charge. 

What was the most important thing to you when deciding who to work with for your wedding?

Zach and I have very different personalities, I’m the serious one and he’s the goofy one. It was very important that we found vendors that meshed with our personalities. We chose each of our vendors because they were very honest with us, they truly cared about my vision and they were genuinely invested in making our day perfect.

Did any of your vendors do anything special for you before, on, or after your wedding day that you would like to share?

Our photographer was simply spectacular, from the first time we talked on the phone I knew that Kristin and I would be friends for life! When my contract arrived in the mail and I saw her detailed packaging I knew I had made the right choice! Shortly after our engagement session Kristin sent me my very first monogrammed wedding present that turned into my “wedding tote” for all of my paperwork and inspiration. Even though my monogram didn’t change it was incredibly exciting for me to know that the B was for my married name!!

What was your favorite thing about your wedding?

It is incredibly hard for me to choose my ONE favorite thing about our wedding!! Everything was perfect!! If I had to choose one thing I would say my favorite thing was our private last dance. Having that last few minutes to just take it all in with my husband was something I will never forget.

What is your best piece of advice for other brides?

First, find someone you trust to coordinate your wedding day. You will be so thankful when the day arrives and you can just sit back and relax!! Second, splurge on your photographer! Long after the day is over and for generations to come your photos will tell the story of your wedding day. 

I must say, those are some EXCELLENT pieces of advice Emily! Thank you so much for sharing your wedding insight with us! And thank you to Antonia Christianson Events for planning this beautiful wedding and Kristin Byrum Photography for sharing the photographs with us!

I love the elegance and simplicity of the centerpieces… and those bouquets are GORGEOUS, aren’t they?! I absolutely LOVE the orange and gray together… what do you all think of it? Are any of you planning a wedding using orange or gray?

 

Vendors who made it all happen…

Wedding Planner/Coordinator: Antonia Christianson Events / Photographer: Kristin Byrum Photography / Flowers & Decor: Palette of Petals / DJ & Lighting: Brian King of Superlative Events / Catering: Cuisine and Company / Cake Baker: Patti Cakes, Inc. / Transportation: Venture Tours / Makeup Artist: Faces by Rebecca Wood / Hairstylist: Changes / Reception Venue: Chrysler Museum
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10 comments

  • Antonia Christianson:

    May 16, 2012 7:51 am

    It was an absolute Honor to share in the planning process of Emily's big day with her. She was an amazing client with gorgeous taste. Love Love Love. !!

  • Rachel:

    May 16, 2012 9:03 am

    I am so excited to see Emily and Zach's gorgeous wedding featured! This bride has amazing taste! Such beautiful pictures and details, congratulations to the happy couple!

  • Christie O. {Hindsight Bride}:

    May 16, 2012 9:09 am

    This is one of my all time favorite color palettes, especially for winter. I also love the turquoise pop of color of that vintage car.

  • Brian King:

    May 16, 2012 9:36 am

    Such a wonderful wedding to be a part of! Emily is one of those brides where you get inspired from her ideas and attention to details:)

  • Ruth @ My Love Wedding Ring:

    May 16, 2012 12:17 pm

    What a stunning wedding, and such beautifully clean clear photographs! And the little ring bowl is just the cutest!!

  • Sarah {A Paper Proposal}:

    May 16, 2012 2:51 pm

    gorgeous flowers! Love those bright orange pashminas on the bridesmaids, too!

  • Danielle:

    May 16, 2012 4:24 pm

    Can you please tell me where the cufflinks are from? TDF! :)

  • Sarah Addison (Details by Sarah Elizabeth):

    May 16, 2012 5:38 pm

    Oh my gosh! I love this! The bride's face when she's walking out for their first look is priceless. and that fur wrap- my goodness! the picture of them on the dance floor from above (with nobody else around) is so beautiful. what a lovely day!

  • Emily:

    May 17, 2012 9:11 am

    Thank you for all your sweet comments!! Ruth - Our amazing ring bearer bowl is from Paloma's Nest!! Danielle - The cufflinks are from "The Clay Collection" on ETSY!!!

  • Kristin Byrum:

    May 17, 2012 12:26 pm

    We adored working with Emily + zach and documenting their stunning wedding! They are the sweetest couple you can imagine, and it makes me so happy their gorgeous wedding was featured! Thank you for publishing... the feature looks awesome!

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